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  #1  
Old 06-03-2014, 7:24 AM
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Default Self Defense 9mm Bullets, Other than Jacketed Hollow Point

If copper jacketed hollow points were not an option, what 9mm bullets would you mass produce for self defense?

Please post bullet profile: (FMJ Round Nose, FMJ Flat Nose, Copper plated Flat nose/Round Nose, hollow point , Lead Round Nose, Lead Semi-Wadcutter (yes, they do exist) etc... All bullet profiles are welcome to play, as long as you can back up why.

Note: Copper plated hollow points are welcome to play, even though expansion, if any, would probably be minimal.

Please post weight of bullet in grains and relative penetration compared to bullets of other weights.

If possible, please post the velocity you feel you could safely push this bullet out at from a 4.5" barrel in order to make it adequate for a two-legged bad guy.

Write a couple paragraphs or a couple of sentences as to why you think It is the best bullet design excluding hollow points.

This should get good!
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  #2  
Old 06-03-2014, 7:33 AM
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Mass produce as in handload? From commonly available components?

In that case, I vote Speer 3997 JSP. It has a Gold Dot jacket, pre cut to the lead, and has a pure lead core so it will expand at 9mm velocities. It will penetrate like 45 hardball and make a similar wound.
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Old 06-03-2014, 7:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Grunt81 View Post
Write a couple paragraphs or a couple of sentences as to why you think It is the best bullet design excluding hollow points.

This should get good!
Are you serious?
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Old 06-03-2014, 7:42 AM
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Originally Posted by J-cat View Post
Mass produce as in handload? From commonly available components?

In that case, I vote Speer 3997 JSP. It has a Gold Dot jacket, pre cut to the lead, and has a pure lead core so it will expand at 9mm velocities. It will penetrate like 45 hardball and make a similar wound.
Yes, I mean handload. If I wanted to have a few hundred or a thousand of my reloads in the closet, I wouldn't want to pay jacketed hollow point prices, nor would I trust them to adequately penetrate thick clothing or a car door.

I've never even seen a jacketed soft point in 9mm. I'll look into it. Thank you for that.

Last edited by Grunt81; 06-03-2014 at 7:47 AM..
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Old 06-03-2014, 7:43 AM
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Are you serious?
I'm serious.

Are you one of those .45 elitists?
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  #6  
Old 06-03-2014, 7:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Grunt81 View Post
I'm serious.

Are you one of those .45 elitists?
Absolutely not.

I'm just having trouble understanding why you want 9mm ammo that isn't modern JHP. From what I gather this is a thought experiment, not an availability issue.

So, why?
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Old 06-03-2014, 7:45 AM
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Why? There is no logical reason to use anything other than modern bullets for self defense. Gold Dot or HST are some of the best. XTP offers more penetration at the cost of expansion. Unless it's self defense against large, dangerous animals, modern expanding hollow points are the only good choice. There's a reason police no longer use 38 Special lead round nose. It sucks.
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Old 06-03-2014, 7:57 AM
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I don't want to pay the prices for modern hollow points. I've seen an X-ray of a .40 S&W that went through the chest and stopped in the body, a centimeter away from the spine. The bad guy lived because the hollow point didn't have enough penetration. He was probably still able to fight and be a threat. I've also read that the human skin is equatable to 4 inches of muscle tissue due to its elasticity. So that mans that 8 inches of penetration is devoted just to skin (entrance and exit wound), not accounting for bone or organs and tissues of different densities. I've read that hollow points are safer for the bad guy because the under-penetration helps them live. That's true in the example I gave above.

Over penetration is not a realistic issue in my opinion because in most defensive shootings, more rounds are missed than actually hit the target.

I'm looking for a cost-effective way to have a store of 9mm ammo at home that I can feel confident will get the job done. I don't want a perfectly placed spine shot slowed down so fast that it never reaches it, which we all know the expansion of the hollow point petals help dump all the energy into the target, as well as hit the brakes.
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Old 06-03-2014, 8:03 AM
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Originally Posted by floogy View Post
Why? There is no logical reason to use anything other than modern bullets for self defense. Gold Dot or HST are some of the best. XTP offers more penetration at the cost of expansion. Unless it's self defense against large, dangerous animals, modern expanding hollow points are the only good choice. There's a reason police no longer use 38 Special lead round nose. It sucks.
pretty much summed it up right there, why stray from the best?
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Old 06-03-2014, 8:07 AM
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I'm serious.

Are you one of those .45 elitists?








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I'm serious.
Are you one of those .45 elitists?
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  #11  
Old 06-03-2014, 8:09 AM
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What if the bad guys takes cover behind something light, such as a car door or a wooden table?

Guys, this isn't a debate about which round is better. This is a thread, that when EXCLUDING JACKETED HOLLOW POINTS, should have posts that support why a certain bullet profile is better than the others for human targets in a variety of scenarios.

Last edited by Grunt81; 06-03-2014 at 8:14 AM..
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  #12  
Old 06-03-2014, 8:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Grunt81 View Post
I don't want to pay the prices for modern hollow points. I've seen an X-ray of a .40 S&W that went through the chest and stopped in the body, a centimeter away from the spine. The bad guy lived because the hollow point didn't have enough penetration. He was probably still able to fight and be a threat. I've also read that the human skin is equatable to 4 inches of muscle tissue due to its elasticity. So that mans that 8 inches of penetration is devoted just to skin (entrance and exit wound), not accounting for bone or organs and tissues of different densities. I've read that hollow points are safer for the bad guy because the under-penetration helps them live. That's true in the example I gave above.

Over penetration is not a realistic issue in my opinion because in most defensive shootings, more rounds are missed than actually hit the target.

I'm looking for a cost-effective way to have a store of 9mm ammo at home that I can feel confident will get the job done. I don't want a perfectly placed spine shot slowed down so fast that it never reaches it, which we all know the expansion of the hollow point petals help dump all the energy into the target, as well as hit the brakes.
There is so much wrong with this post.

I would strongly urge you to read this to get an understanding of terminal ballistics:

FBI: Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness

http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf
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  #13  
Old 06-03-2014, 8:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Grunt81 View Post
What if the bad guys takes cover behind something light, such as a car door or a wooden table?

Guys, this isn't a debate about which round is better. This is a thread, that when EXCLUDING JACKETED HOLLOW POINTS, should have posts that support why a certain bullet profile is better than the others for human targets in a variety of scenarios.
And when you exclude modern JHP ammo you're left with a bullet that is not effective.

No one is debating caliber, we're trying to tell you the premise you've come up with is seriously flawed.
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Old 06-03-2014, 8:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Grunt81 View Post
What if the bad guys takes cover behind something light, such as a car door or a wooden table?

Then shoot through the same hole.


But if had to choose I would check this out http://www.ballistics101.com/9mm.php and gauge what Muzzle Energy ft·lb and Muzzle Velocity ft/sec I would want, with what type of projectile I wanted. That being said, for FMJ I would look into maybe something like Buffalo Bore 9mm +P FMJ-FN.
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I'm serious.
Are you one of those .45 elitists?
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Old 06-03-2014, 8:28 AM
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So what you are basically asking is "What is the second best bullet design for self defense?".
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Old 06-03-2014, 8:31 AM
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I know were not debating caliber and I've read that FBI publication before. I don't see how it's supporting my premise not being valid if one of the main points is that penetration is key for incapacitation. In the Miami shooting in the 80's, I think they had penetration issues with their rounds which is why the bad guys weren't stopped as soon as they should have been.

Come on buddy. Just think outside the box. If JHP didn't exist, what bullet style would you prefer?
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Old 06-03-2014, 8:32 AM
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So what you are basically asking is "What is the second best bullet design for self defense?".
Haha! Sure Trenchfoot. What's the second best design? You have anything to offer here?
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Old 06-03-2014, 8:37 AM
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Originally Posted by punisheryayarea View Post
Then shoot through the same hole.


But if had to choose I would check this out http://www.ballistics101.com/9mm.php and gauge what Muzzle Energy ft·lb and Muzzle Velocity ft/sec I would want, with what type of projectile I wanted. That being said, for FMJ I would look into maybe something like Buffalo Bore 9mm +P FMJ-FN.
Same hole would work!!! Haha. I agree with you man. I've read somewhere that a flat nose will do more tissue crushing than a round nose any day of the week due to it's larger metplat and that a round nose leaves a hole slightly smaller than bullet diameter while a flat nose leaves a hole slightly larger than bullet diameter. It makes sense that a round nose just pushes elastic human tissue out of the way without damaging it as much.
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Old 06-03-2014, 8:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grunt81 View Post
I know were not debating caliber and I've read that FBI publication before. I don't see how it's supporting my premise not being valid if one of the main points is that penetration is key for incapacitation. In the Miami shooting in the 80's, I think they had penetration issues with their rounds which is why the bad guys weren't stopped as soon as they should have been.

Come on buddy. Just think outside the box. If JHP didn't exist, what bullet style would you prefer?
JHP does exist.
I use modern ammunition in my guns for self defense.
Based on gel tests I've seen (as well as AARs of OIS) I'm confident in my choice.
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Old 06-03-2014, 8:44 AM
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http://www.lehighdefense.com/index.p...-bullet-detail



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Old 06-03-2014, 8:45 AM
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Haha! Sure Trenchfoot. What's the second best design? You have anything to offer here?
If I could not have JHPs, I would probably go with a LSWC
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Old 06-03-2014, 8:48 AM
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Hossb7,

It's not a question of being confident in your choice. It's a question of bullet preference when jhp is not an option. I've stated that several times. You should move on to a thread entitled "fmj vs jhp" but this sir, is not it. You're defending a bullet profile that I'm not offending. If you don't have an opinion on bullet choice excluding jhp, please unsubscribe from this thread.

Last edited by Grunt81; 06-03-2014 at 8:50 AM..
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  #23  
Old 06-03-2014, 8:53 AM
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If I could not have JHPs, I would probably go with a LSWC
Nice. Any reason in particular you would choose that over a +P flat nose, and expanding fmj, or a soft point?

I have a storm lake barrel in my Glock 17 which I'm sure can shoot lead. But my brother has a factory barrel in his Glock 34. If there was a situation where he needed to shoot my ammo, the leading would render his firearm in operable. That aside, I've always like the LSWC but have never shot it.
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Old 06-03-2014, 9:09 AM
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Modern JHPs are designed to turn energy into wounding with maximum efficiency through a variety of scenarios and intermediate challenges. (clothes, doors, windshields, fat bastards etc).

You're being very myopic when you consider an instance of a JHP not quite reaching the spine without balancing it against the fact that of the 50% of (thoraic) stops that aren't psychological, the majority will be the result of hypovolemic shock because the CNS is so damned tiny and surrounded by bones.


If you want penetration, ball should do you fine. I wouldn't put too much stock in a flat nose in a pistol cartridge, a long *** 460 grain hardcast out of a 45-70 is going to stay nose forward a lot longer than any of the stubby pellets we pewpew out of pistols.

It's a bit of a silly question though, since you might shoot 2-500 carry rounds a year, the cost difference to pony up for good JHPs vs cheaper alternatives is a steak dinner per year, which is noise.

If you're worried about some sort of scenario that requires you to be shooting at lots of bad guys, then my answer is ball again because if arming the grey ranks fell to me, I'd rather have 7,000 rounds of ball than 6,000 rounds of whatever is slightly crappier than a JHP
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Last edited by DannyZRC; 06-03-2014 at 9:17 AM..
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Old 06-03-2014, 9:18 AM
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Federal EFMJ. It's a fmj round so it will feet reliably in guns that don't like hollow points, but it has a polymer core that crushes on impact causing it to expand like a hollow point. Best of both worlds right there.
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Old 06-03-2014, 9:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grunt81 View Post
Hossb7,

It's not a question of being confident in your choice. It's a question of bullet preference when jhp is not an option. I've stated that several times. You should move on to a thread entitled "fmj vs jhp" but this sir, is not it. You're defending a bullet profile that I'm not offending. If you don't have an opinion on bullet choice excluding jhp, please unsubscribe from this thread.
You've listed numerous reasons as to why you aren't going with the best bullet choice.

Cost.
Availability.
Lack of penetration.
Lack of performance through intermediate barriers.


I know I'm not the only one who's confused about your reasoning, or lack thereof.


Also, your signature line says it all. Better to have JHP and not need it than to need it and not have it.
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Old 06-03-2014, 9:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grunt81 View Post
I know were not debating caliber and I've read that FBI publication before. I don't see how it's supporting my premise not being valid if one of the main points is that penetration is key for incapacitation. In the Miami shooting in the 80's, I think they had penetration issues with their rounds which is why the bad guys weren't stopped as soon as they should have been.

Come on buddy. Just think outside the box. If JHP didn't exist, what bullet style would you prefer?
I strongly encourage you to find a copy of the forensic analysis of the Miami shoot out. If anything it proves that mind set is a critical factor in shootings involving handguns. The 9mm Silvertip that hit Platt was most likely a fatal unrecoverable hit, yet he continued to fight for several minutes, despite basically drowning in his own blood.

Incapacitation with a handgun is iffy at best, even with the best rounds money can buy. So why even downgrade yourself to save money. My life and the lives of people I am responsible for are much more valuable than any amount of money.
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Old 06-03-2014, 9:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grunt81 View Post
I know were not debating caliber and I've read that FBI publication before. I don't see how it's supporting my premise not being valid if one of the main points is that penetration is key for incapacitation. In the Miami shooting in the 80's, I think they had penetration issues with their rounds which is why the bad guys weren't stopped as soon as they should have been.

Come on buddy. Just think outside the box. If JHP didn't exist, what bullet style would you prefer?
Also, 9mm bullet design has grown exponentially in the last 10 years, let alone the last 30.
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Old 06-03-2014, 9:44 AM
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Gentlemen,

Let me make something clear right now. I have Remmington JHP in my magazine right now, in the pistol I keep bedside. I make sure my wife has the same Remm JHP in her Berretta, bedside. I don't think I've ever shot any of the 50 rounds that came in the box. I've never had a need to buy more because, thankfully, I've never had a defensive shooting in my home.

Now that that ammo is getting relatively old (about 10-12 years, I'd say), I'm considering shooting it just to see if it functions and will pick up another 50 round box of something premium with better technology. I have no problem paying the price of a steak dinner for my bedside ammo, and of course I agree, I'd shoot a bullet made out of diamonds if it meant protecting the ones I love.

So, with that being said. I would love to buy 1000 Hornady XTP's and a 1000 +P rated brass casings. But I will not. I have close to 4,000 9mm brass casings in my home and I'd like to load them up with a copper plated bullet that I can get for about 500 bullets per $45. This is SHTF ammo gents.
I can see how I've been vague regarding my intentions for this thread so I apologize for that.

So a better question, if you had to mass load a bulk, cheap bullet for a SHTF scenario, which would you choose for human targets, possibly clad in kevlar vests? I'm leaning towards the 124 grain copper plated flat nose. Anybody have other thoughts?
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Old 06-03-2014, 9:50 AM
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M882.

edit: also, don't waste money stockpiling pistol ammo for SHTF. That's what rifle ammo was invented for.
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Old 06-03-2014, 9:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Grunt81 View Post

So a better question, if you had to mass load a bulk, cheap bullet for a SHTF scenario, which would you choose for human targets, possibly clad in kevlar vests? I'm leaning towards the 124 grain copper plated flat nose. Anybody have other thoughts?
A rifle round, your not going to find a common 9mm round that will defeat the majority of modern soft body armor.
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Old 06-03-2014, 9:58 AM
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I don't think it matters. Loaded equally, pretty much any non-hp 9mm is going to pass through, leaving a tiny 9mm hole. It you hit your magic spine shot, they'll all work as well. Sure you could get into semi-exotic bullets but that's defeating your basic premise.
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Old 06-03-2014, 10:29 AM
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Those are definitely good points. I agree that rifle rounds are much better for an apocalypse type / government disarmament situation for self defense.

But we can't disregard having ammo on hand for our pistols in case a rifle is inoperable or we pass a pistol off to someone on our side who is unarmed.

Like said before, a 9mm ball round is better than throwing a rock.

But the point of this thread is to get input on bulk, cheap bullets that may or may not have an edge over a similar priced bullet with a different profile. I don't mind the theory, I actually enjoy it. But let's get input on bulk ammo characteristics as a back up plan to a rifle.
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Old 06-03-2014, 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Grunt81 View Post
Nice. Any reason in particular you would choose that over a +P flat nose, and expanding fmj, or a soft point?

I have a storm lake barrel in my Glock 17 which I'm sure can shoot lead. But my brother has a factory barrel in his Glock 34. If there was a situation where he needed to shoot my ammo, the leading would render his firearm in operable. That aside, I've always like the LSWC but have never shot it.
Since you said you were reloading, and cost is a factor, I didn't consider EFMJ. Soft points would probably perform better than LSWC on human tissue, but you were worried about barrier penetration. I have never seen a 9mm soft point test vs barriers, so I'm not sure how it would fare.

Finally, I don't think there will be much of a difference in performance between fmj flat point, fmj round nose and LSWC in a 9mm round, so I went with what I could buy the most of.
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Old 06-03-2014, 10:42 AM
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A rifle round, your not going to find a common 9mm round that will defeat the majority of modern soft body armor.
Yeah, 9mm is not going to defeat even a mediocre vest.

If XTP is too expensive then there really isn't much to say other than just using plated round nose 115 grain. It's a poor stopper, but the plated hollow points don't really expand anyway, it's supposed to increase accuracy. Flat nose bullets or semi wadcutters might have feeding issues depending on the pistol and wouldn't have much of an effect on terminal ballistics. Using 115 grain ammo will increase velocity which is your only friend with ball ammo.

Like others have said, pistol rounds are not your end of the world go-to. If you want to have 1000 rounds squirreled away that's fine. But you're right, buying 1000 rounds of XTP just to sit on isn't worthwhile. If it's indeed a priority to have 1000 rounds of 9mm, just go with plated 115 grain. Load it pretty hot to get all the stopping power out of the bullet that you can. You'll probably never need it. Seal the primers, store it in cans and forget about it.

That said, if I were to rely on a pistol to get me through a bad situation I'd at least spend the cash on some JHP. You can still use your once fired brass and you'd spend $120 instead of $90 on bullets. Midway has Remmy JHP for $120/1000. You really wouldn't spend the extra $30 for real defensive ammo? If it's just for punching holes in paper, who cares, but $30 is too much for your back up plan?
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Old 06-03-2014, 11:19 AM
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Look up HATCHER FORMULA
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Old 06-03-2014, 11:43 AM
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That said, if I were to rely on a pistol to get me through a bad situation I'd at least spend the cash on some JHP. You can still use your once fired brass and you'd spend $120 instead of $90 on bullets. Midway has Remmy JHP for $120/1000. You really wouldn't spend the extra $30 for real defensive ammo? If it's just for punching holes in paper, who cares, but $30 is too much for your back up plan?
This is the purpose of these threads - to educate each other with the knowledge we have. Thanks for that. I had no idea that jhp could be had for that price. If using ball or flat nose, I'd prefer 115 or 124 to try to have the smaller mass run out of steam and put more energy into the target. For jhp, I prefer 147grain because i'd rather have a slower expansion with a little more penetration. Those 147 grain JHPs run more than twice the price at $250/1K. Even then, if it's a one time deal, $160 is still not so high of a difference that it should deter one of us. Great point.

Personally, I'd foresee myself probably using a magazine with both hollow points and flat points in it for a concealed carry weapon and for SHTF ammo, with exclusively hollow points used in my home for my bedside weapon. This thread has helped me make that decision.

With that being said, I believe the flat nose does offer a slight edge in performance vs round nose for the same price, due to larger metplat crushing tissue rather than pushing it aside. "I'll take that slight edge."
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Old 06-03-2014, 1:26 PM
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So, with that being said. I would love to buy 1000 Hornady XTP's and a 1000 +P rated brass casings. But I will not. I have close to 4,000 9mm brass casings in my home and I'd like to load them up with a copper plated bullet that I can get for about 500 bullets per $45. This is SHTF ammo gents.
I can see how I've been vague regarding my intentions for this thread so I apologize for that.

So a better question, if you had to mass load a bulk, cheap bullet for a SHTF scenario, which would you choose for human targets, possibly clad in kevlar vests? I'm leaning towards the 124 grain copper plated flat nose. Anybody have other thoughts?

If you want bulk and cheap consider Zero brand JHP. They make 115,124,147gr weights cheap and they are better quality than H,R, or W.
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Old 06-03-2014, 1:40 PM
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I suggested the Rem JHP as an option for a defensive ammo stash. It is cheap, relatively good expansion but far from the best available. Much better than plated or FMJ for defense but not so expensive you'd mind it just collecting dust.

I've done a lot of checking on 9mm and 40 defensive ammo for CCW and home defense. I've come to the conclusion that 115 grain Gold Dot for 9mm and 165 or 180 grain HST for 40 are the best bets for me. Reliable expansion, good penetration without going farther than necessary (More than 18" is not necessary for two legged animals) and a solid track record with police.

You seem to be concerned about adequate penetration. Which can be a problem with JHP bullets without a bonded jacket. The bullet can come apart and not expand reliably or not penetrate as far because it is shedding weight. Remington, Winchester, Hydra Shok and other old designs are not bonded. Bonded jacket JHP (Gold Dot, HST, Golden Saber, XTP etc) designs are superior because they have better barrier penetration, more reliable expansion and penetrate farther. I think the 115 grain Gold Dot got 17" in gel after 4 layers of denim IIRC. More than enough. Consider a newer design JHP for your home defense ammo. It will give you an edge if you ever need it.
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Old 06-03-2014, 3:40 PM
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Why?
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I don't want to pay the prices for modern hollow points.
You can't fix cheap.

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What if the bad guys takes cover behind something light, such as a car door or a wooden table?
Use a rifle.
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